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andrew7
Professional
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 692
Location: United Kingdom
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 Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:21 am Post subject: Swing plane variation.... |
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Hi guys,
I do a lot of practice with my PW and 8-iron mainly...
Recently I took out my 3-wood and driver and was very concious of how flat the swing felt...
Obvously the swing plane for a driver is far flatter than for a PW, but in a normal swing that change in steepness is usually taken care of by slighlymore/less spine tilt at address...
With MA it is stated that the address position is identical for all clubs, the only difference being a change in ulner deviation of the hands to account for different club lengths...
Which got me to thinking....
If you are standing the same, and your arms are hanging from your shoulders at the same angle for every shot, if your spine angle is the same, then it will turn the same on the backswing...
If you then do the recommended arm movement during the backswing, then surely every swing is going to end up on the same plane?..
So what I want to know is, what do we actually do to account for the (say) steeper swing plane a PWagainst that of a driver...do we raise the arms more, or do we tilt the shoulders more during the backswing or what?.....
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..."if it doesn't talk to you, you're not swinging it".... |
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andrew7
Professional
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 692
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: .... |
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No one got the answer to this one?..... 
_________________
..."if it doesn't talk to you, you're not swinging it".... |
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Thomas Dang
Site Admin
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 340
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Swing plane variation.... |
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| andrew7 wrote: |
So what I want to know is, what do we actually do to account for the (say) steeper swing plane a PWagainst that of a driver...do we raise the arms more, or do we tilt the shoulders more during the backswing or what?..... |
Andrew,
I assume that I understand your question correctly. In this case you should not do anything during the swing. The set up is where your plane will be dictated through out the swing.
This is the reason why the set up is such a crucial part to the golf swing. If your swing is off, it started from the improper set up as the back swing and down swing is the result of the stimulus (the thought of the swing and the placement of your body into position to strike the ball), to the reaction (from the back swing to the top), then the response (the down swing into the strike.)
You should not have any thoughts whilst you are swinging as this will disrupt the synapses of the brain in connection with your body.
_________________
"There are two forms of knowledge: one legitimate, one bastard. To the bastard sort belong all the following: sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch. The legitimate is quite distinct from this. When the bastard form cannot see more minutely, nor hear nor smell nor taste nor perceive through the touch, then another finer form must be employed. - Democritus" |
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davidy48
Professional
Joined: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:16 am Post subject: |
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Thomas,
Very interesting that you say you should have no thoughts at all while swinging. Techniques such as Clearkey and Inner Game give the brain something non-swing related to occupy it, and are effective. Most pros I believe play with one swing thought or key, which varies from day to day.
But playing with a totally blank mind - that's another step ! As an experienced meditator I know how hard that state is to reach in the quiet of your own home with no distractions, let alone being out on a golfcourse... More please, I'm fascinated !
David |
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andrew7
Professional
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 692
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:57 am Post subject: .... |
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Sorry Thomas, perhaps I didn't explain it properly....
Throughout the tapes it is stressed about accuracy in the setup and that it is the same for every shot...
In the diagram below, both headless golfers are setup exactly the same, the only difference beong the angle of the clubshaft in relation to the arms...
Taking the dotted line as being the plane of the clubhead if your arms and clubshaft were in line and were at 90 degrees to your spine...this is the same as the demo Mike give when he does the 360 degree rotation in the skeleton suit...
Lets say that the first golfer is using a PW...Look at how steep the swing plane is....
If he swings backwards and forwards along that same plane with the driver (second golfer) he will dig a hole in the ground between his feet and the ball...
Let me explain why I seem to be so picky here...
With my old swing my body/arm/clubshaft angle was always the same...the only thing that changed was the angle of the spine which was more upright as the shafts got longer....the resultant swing plane was always the same in relationship to my body..
With MA, the shaft to arm angle changes for different clubs, therefore there must be a compensation soemwhere in the backswing to enable the club to stay on the different planes for the different length clubs....
Although you are correct in your above statement that there should ideally be no thought during the swing, at the learning stages, there has to be thought, to ingrain the correct movement...
I am just trying to check here whether/how to do the correct movement in relationship to the differnt swing planes....(if you see what I mean... ..
[img] [/img]
_________________
..."if it doesn't talk to you, you're not swinging it".... |
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andrew7
Professional
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 692
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:10 am Post subject: .... |
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| davidy48 wrote: | Thomas,
Very interesting that you say you should have no thoughts at all while swinging. Techniques such as Clearkey and Inner Game give the brain something non-swing related to occupy it, and are effective. Most pros I believe play with one swing thought or key, which varies from day to day.
But playing with a totally blank mind - that's another step ! As an experienced meditator I know how hard that state is to reach in the quiet of your own home with no distractions, let alone being out on a golfcourse... More please, I'm fascinated !
David |
David
I remember playing in Quimper in Brittany a few years ago and we were on the 17th green when there was a massive crack of thunder......
Well I'm one of those people that generally hides in the cupboard during thunderstorms, so all I wanted to do was get up the 18th and into the clubhouse ASAP...
I ran to the 18th tee, stuck my ball on the tee, roughly addressed it and gave it a smack as quickly as I could....All that was in my mind was getting up that fairway and into the clubhouse....
Yep, it was my best drive of the previous three days.....life sucks..
_________________
..."if it doesn't talk to you, you're not swinging it".... |
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fire_it
Professional
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 94
Location: canada eh!!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:04 am Post subject: Re: .... |
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| andrew7 wrote: | Sorry Thomas, perhaps I didn't explain it properly....
Throughout the tapes it is stressed about accuracy in the setup and that it is the same for every shot...
In the diagram below, both headless golfers are setup exactly the same, the only difference beong the angle of the clubshaft in relation to the arms...
Taking the dotted line as being the plane of the clubhead if your arms and clubshaft were in line and were at 90 degrees to your spine...this is the same as the demo Mike give when he does the 360 degree rotation in the skeleton suit...
Lets say that the first golfer is using a PW...Look at how steep the swing plane is....
If he swings backwards and forwards along that same plane with the driver (second golfer) he will dig a hole in the ground between his feet and the ball...
Let me explain why I seem to be so picky here...
With my old swing my body/arm/clubshaft angle was always the same...the only thing that changed was the angle of the spine which was more upright as the shafts got longer....the resultant swing plane was always the same in relationship to my body..
With MA, the shaft to arm angle changes for different clubs, therefore there must be a compensation soemwhere in the backswing to enable the club to stay on the different planes for the different length clubs....
Although you are correct in your above statement that there should ideally be no thought during the swing, at the learning stages, there has to be thought, to ingrain the correct movement...
I am just trying to check here whether/how to do the correct movement in relationship to the differnt swing planes....(if you see what I mean...:)..
[img][/img] |
andrew 7
There is an accomodation made in the wrists to fit the lie of the club.
These variables determine the involuntary change in the pitch of the plane.
The longer the club the flatter the pitch. The shorter the club the steeper the pitch.
cheers steve |
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Thomas Dang
Site Admin
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 340
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| davidy48 wrote: | Thomas,
Very interesting that you say you should have no thoughts at all while swinging. Techniques such as Clearkey and Inner Game give the brain something non-swing related to occupy it, and are effective. Most pros I believe play with one swing thought or key, which varies from day to day.
But playing with a totally blank mind - that's another step ! As an experienced meditator I know how hard that state is to reach in the quiet of your own home with no distractions, let alone being out on a golfcourse... More please, I'm fascinated !
David |
David,
You are correct in your statement that most players have a hard time
playing in the state of no mind. This is the subject that Mike and I
discussed with one and another in great details as I am a Bhudist and was
raised in a monestary up until I left my own country. Meditation and all
the so called New Age arts were part of my life and there are nothing new
about them. They are quite ancient if one thinks about it. I am observing
this phenomenon here in the West with a great deal of interest as people
are turning what was pure into a business. As that happened there no
longer the connection in it hence most can meditate all day long here in
the West and still struggle. Mike Austin understood the state of no mind
through his early research and he actually applied it in his later life hence
he was able to break the distance barrier that everyone was and is still
looking for. However, Mike was in and out of that state or so the called the
zone since life can distract you from your self quite frequently.
I met with Mike because of his interest in spirituality and finding the so
called true self and that is the very reason we got together. This is where
his hidden power came from in conjunction with his knowledge of the
mechanics.
My goal here is to teach golfers how to play in this state of no mind as
well as how to do so with the correct swing mechanics and in order for the
student to learn it, I only want individuals that are willing to go the
distance as there is no short cut in this process.
Imagine your golf swing is like a coin with two sides. One side represents
the mechanics and the other the mind. In order to play well or strike the
ball without effort, one need to use the whole coin not just one side or the
other as that only can last for a brief moment of success. As golfers we
all heard or read instruction manuals or videos on one or the other, but
never both at the same time and how to apply both at the same time. And
to be quite frankly I do not think anyone know how to apply it. They only
talk about it, but to be able to do it is another story.
The reason that I am offering to teach everyone for no fees or a small
amount of fees is because in order for me to be able to help people, I
have to side step the notions from my students that I am here to make a
buck or two from you. Everyone has the right to think whatever they want
to or choose to. However, they believe that what they want or what they
choose do not have any bias, but they do and yet they do not know that
they are doing it. I am sure that all here believe that they are open to
new concepts intellectually, but hidden deep underneath its all there are
doubts and those doubts are so subtle that most are not aware. In order
for what I am teaching to be effective, I will have to disarm you from all
notions and all judgements and to do that I will have to command the
complete trust and surrendering of the so called ego or selfworth as it
usually stand in the way of true knowledges and learning. And to disarm
the ego I can not put a price on it as that will negate who I am. If people
paid me, they often believe that since they paid me they have the right to
tell me what they want and how they want it. And now when this occurs,
learning stops and nothing will come from it accept that they gain
information from me and yet they still will not be able to perform it. My
goal is for my students to be able to perform what they learn, not
regurgitate what I said or what Mike said like a recorder and still not able
to perform the task. In this sense they make an ass out of themselves. I
called this process as learning to be a Jack Ass and this is not what we are
teaching here.
_________________
"There are two forms of knowledge: one legitimate, one bastard. To the bastard sort belong all the following: sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch. The legitimate is quite distinct from this. When the bastard form cannot see more minutely, nor hear nor smell nor taste nor perceive through the touch, then another finer form must be employed. - Democritus" |
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Thomas Dang
Site Admin
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 340
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: Re: .... |
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| andrew7 wrote: | Sorry Thomas, perhaps I didn't explain it properly....
Throughout the tapes it is stressed about accuracy in the setup and that it is the same for every shot...
In the diagram below, both headless golfers are setup exactly the same, the only difference beong the angle of the clubshaft in relation to the arms...
Taking the dotted line as being the plane of the clubhead if your arms and clubshaft were in line and were at 90 degrees to your spine...this is the same as the demo Mike give when he does the 360 degree rotation in the skeleton suit...
Lets say that the first golfer is using a PW...Look at how steep the swing plane is....
If he swings backwards and forwards along that same plane with the driver (second golfer) he will dig a hole in the ground between his feet and the ball...
Let me explain why I seem to be so picky here...
With my old swing my body/arm/clubshaft angle was always the same...the only thing that changed was the angle of the spine which was more upright as the shafts got longer....the resultant swing plane was always the same in relationship to my body..
With MA, the shaft to arm angle changes for different clubs, therefore there must be a compensation soemwhere in the backswing to enable the club to stay on the different planes for the different length clubs....
Although you are correct in your above statement that there should ideally be no thought during the swing, at the learning stages, there has to be thought, to ingrain the correct movement...
I am just trying to check here whether/how to do the correct movement in relationship to the differnt swing planes....(if you see what I mean.....
[img][/img] |
Andrew,
I know the statement that I am about to write here will stir up some debates and disagreement and this is the reason that I rather give lesson in person then to talk about it on a theory base as everyone has a concept of their owns even if they talk about the same thing. My very goal is to teach you how to learn with no concept aka. "No Mind". I have to run at the moment, but I will come back to finish my thought.
_________________
"There are two forms of knowledge: one legitimate, one bastard. To the bastard sort belong all the following: sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch. The legitimate is quite distinct from this. When the bastard form cannot see more minutely, nor hear nor smell nor taste nor perceive through the touch, then another finer form must be employed. - Democritus" |
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Florian
Professional
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 72
Location: Bavaria
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:12 am Post subject: |
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hi andrew,
in my opinion (to make clear its my thought about) there is pretty much the same wrist angle for every club.
because:
from the sideview you are correct but from the front the club goes to the side and in, so the angle from sideview looks steeper but it isnt. Seen from the front it would be the other way arround. Mike is stating that for every club to the next shorter club he goes back half an inch with the ball, if i remember right from austinology. Also he says the shorter the club the more the grip will look like honda grip. But thats because of the club lenght not the way he grips the club.
Maybe that helps ? Its only my opinion could be wrong.
I dont think much about that in setup i think only what MA said:
let the club set the wrist
_________________
As long as you're doing this, ... you can't be doing that ! - TT video letters |
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andrew7
Professional
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 692
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: ..... |
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I think you may be right there Florian...
The clubhead swing plane is still gets steeper as the clubs get shorter though....that is what I was questioning really....
_________________
..."if it doesn't talk to you, you're not swinging it".... |
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Florian
Professional
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 72
Location: Bavaria
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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so for your real question andrew, its obvious that the plane gets steeper with a shorter club.
Whats your real concern about that ?!
The shorter clubs must go through the ground, but after impact. Then it goes up to sweep from the ground for longer clubs and woods. Maybe thats it ?
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As long as you're doing this, ... you can't be doing that ! - TT video letters |
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andrew7
Professional
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 692
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: ... |
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| Florian wrote: | so for your real question andrew, its obvious that the plane gets steeper with a shorter club.
Whats your real concern about that ?!
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"Lets say that the first golfer is using a PW...Look at how steep the swing plane is....
If he swings backwards and forwards along that same plane with the driver (second golfer) he will dig a hole in the ground between his feet and the ball...
Let me explain why I seem to be so picky here...
With my old swing my body/arm/clubshaft angle was always the same...the only thing that changed was the angle of the spine which was more upright as the shafts got longer....the resultant swing plane was always the same in relationship to my body..
With MA, the shaft to arm angle changes for different clubs, therefore there must be a compensation soemwhere in the backswing to enable the club to stay on the different planes for the different length clubs.... "
basically I want ot know (in fine detail like the rest of Austinology) exactly wahat you have to physically do to make those compensations, which creates the different steepnessess in plane....
_________________
..."if it doesn't talk to you, you're not swinging it".... |
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Florian
Professional
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 72
Location: Bavaria
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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sorry andrew,
i understand what you mean now. i never thought or think about that. maybe or for sure i cant answer your question in theory or in some other way and the people who can, well i think they wont. (dont know why) or they cant. Who am i to judge about that  .
What i can say is that MA is stressing that the hands are the last connection between the brain and the club. In Peaceriver MD says the hands are a multijoint thing that can do weird things to the clubhead. Thats very true in my opinion. I can consciously repeat bad shot pattern but the good pattern is missing (or i dont recognize them as good, im afraid) im working on that, to dig out the good pattern.
For me at the last time i was thinking a lot of throwing a stone on a lake and how i do that(to splash many times before sinking). That leads me to not thinking about the pivot. It comes naturally then, there is not much choice about how to do it. The backswing for the throw is then with counter clockwise and the start of the throw with clockwise rotation. The delayed motion is not the throw then but the releasing of the stone in relation to the waterline. Anybody can do this. And i think thats the point.
All this leads me to the feeling of my best golf shots that i had. There are 300+ yards Drive or 230y 3w from fairway to the green or pw dead straight 3y to the flag. I banned my driver out of my bag so the 300+ lies in the past but the rest was in 2006 and never before ,also my best average results ever are in 2006. And i had hit my 3w past my best driver hits on my homecourse, thats 230 to 290y. (the 300+ where in munich and in spain with the driver) I dont think this is an accident, its the MA concepts coming to work better over the time practicing them.
As you can see, my biggest problem is focusing on one thing and not splitting into the next, and the next, .... and so on ... what was the question again 
A lot of worthless bla bla maybe, never mind, im sitting here now in the first snow in nov like in jan 06 when i first discovered the MA Method.
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As long as you're doing this, ... you can't be doing that ! - TT video letters |
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Florian
Professional
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 72
Location: Bavaria
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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could it be that TD is leading us to not restricting ourselves, free up and try, and discover possibilities that we never thought about. Leaving the mainstream behind us could be the task then.
A little theory would be good though. Free fall without parachute is not it.
_________________
As long as you're doing this, ... you can't be doing that ! - TT video letters |
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